I simply offer another perspective. There is no glorifying God in any of that. Have you not spilled all your dark secrets at Freedom Ministry? pure grace are you or have been in similar situation to stephen? My point with Che is to draw a parallel. I hope you encourage them to visit TWW. And yes, Baptists and other evangelicals have evolved to believing similar using other methods of mediation for people. when the pastor first says, his humility he almost breaks out laughing (cause maybe he knows how stupid it is to say that). I believe these churches are using Driscoll as fallen pastor insurance. According to the Pastor John Lindell, Driscoll has spoken there on three other occasions. No one has to agree with me. The worst of all the bad these churches can do (apart from sexual assaults) is brainwashing the kids into their cult beliefs so that they will not accept the true Word of God at a later date. I am not surprised he is mobilizing his church, which packs a powerful political punch through the sheer number of members and, I believe, their commitment to vote. Those who challenged him were openly chastised, disgracefully removed from membership and/or shunned until the organization he created finally said enough is enough and sent him packing (however, with a nice severance package). Did Paul plagiarize? Thanks for the link i want to read more of the writers work. Seems odd that Robert, Tom Lane and Jimmy Evans need to be pounding their book sales so hard when they are all getting raptured in the next 3.5 years. Even then he will need what was badly missing from Mars Hill, real accountability. There is no uncertainty in that. He was the vulgar shock jock of American Christianity. They secretly instigated men who said here come the false charges. I hope you found some of the above helpful. If there is one thing I know it is that those around Acts 29 circles are now in Mark who? The ones leaving arent stupid. He doesnt come near to meeting basic societal criteria for a decent person. Glassdoor provides our best prediction for total pay in today's job market, along with other types of pay like cash bonuses, stock bonuses, profit sharing, sales commissions, and tips. Ive recently read Wayne Jacobsen Finding Church, Frank Viola Finding Organic Church, Terry Stanley The way Church Was Meant To Be and found what they think the church should be an interesting concept but so far Im not convinced. If you take his quotes about his economic policies in Cuba and substitute covenant or biblical Gospel he sounds about the same as the pastors we are discussing. probably just my opinion, and I overgeneralized. They really believe that God has anointed the leaders to lead them. So many use Ches image as some sort of inspirational symbol. Even a brief check on MD online will turn up 67 billion pages with examples of his vulgar or obnoxious and bullying behavior, including several blogs by ex Mars Hill members. Mark Driscoll was totally missing those things. How can they do that? The virus is having a wonderful time right now spreading through this country, taking advantage of circumstances where people have let their guard go down. For all the lack of American Idol production values I learned more in that one day of teaching at that little church then I did in all the years I attended Gateway. At a cash price of 2600 Denarii ($210,000 in Roman money) a book? where is Mark Driscolls apology to over a thousand children in two orphanages? He told me he appreciated my column and my work at the News-Leader. Lindell reused the Robert Morris line of chiding his congregation to stop shooting the wounded. In the future, people will tell churches and christians to distance themselves from the dishonesty of the dishonest churches. I think that the only way to self regulate is to have benchmarks that people must reach to be in leadership positions. Actually are pews still in general use? It is anguish because i love them, and see the pain of all three of them. We need to be just absolutely rigorously adherent to things that we know work. The reason why I answered like that is because most of this stuff goes on because the pew sitters are not actively involved in the church operatons and are not demanding openess and transparancy of staff and leaders. She was warned not to work with Agathos. It is the normalization of sociopathy. I am always eager and willing to learn, so no argument here. This has nothing to do with the recent downfall of Mark and demise of Mars Hill. The word "love" appears, Lindell said, because it would be unloving not to tell someone that when salvation is at stake. I have learned much on this blog and often from your comments which are intelligent and insightful. Christian institutions are trying to express an organic Jesus in non-organic structures. He should not be making a buck off Jesus in any way, shape, or form, IMO. The youngest generation may be leaving the church in record numbers but at least they have a fighting chance of finding the real God later. If the denominational system is rejected on doctrinal grounds, that only leaves the congregation. He spends the remainder of the sermon talking about Saul who became Paul and forgiveness. All allegation deserve to be investigated with openess and transparancy. You might be onto something there Sopy. Is this similar to Radical Chic? I see him as a conference speaker on a different circuit. What I do really pray for is that the followers start questioning and thinking about what they support and find freedom in their own seeking of Christ instead of following a guru and his interpretations. Help keep The Christian Post free for everyone by making a one-time donation today. His Father owns the cattle on a thousand hills and Jesus never asked a single person for a single penny. There is no painting a happy face on Driscoll. You dont find out about some of the really bad stuff until you are pretty deep into it. Lydia on Sat Jun 13, 2015 at 12:48 @ Nancy: For more information about James River Church and to get connected, click the link below! Its just too lucrative of a franchise, you dont want to lose that. Sincerely want to know what the alternative is. or barred from the league for having too many technichal fouls for unsportsmanlike conduct and yelling at the referees for too many seasons. some things i noticed are in (parenthesis) Personally I do not believe God would ever anoint a blatant false teacher. was paul asking for forgiveness? Sam, I sincerely hope that nothing Ive written ever makes you rethink your relationship with God. I sometimes think the man has no friends, but if he does, they should help him now. However, with such a massive back door spanning 15 years, I still think more exiles should be speaking up for the good of the current and future naives. I have heard Driscoll in person.. Yes, I am familiar with Che and what he represents. Consider how he attained it fleecing the flock. They stirred up the people now the mob is forming. . They dont (want to) get it. What am I saying? (Those wounded by MD) must forgive even if (MD) never admits wrong. As some are aware, the result of me pleading for a fair trial and arguing for due deliberation when changing bylaws was that Mark Driscoll, in an abusive and vile manner, threatened to destroy me and my ministry. sheep are watching and wolves coming. @ sam: Ditto Bent Meyer who opposed the consolidation of powerful. We use cookies to ensure that we give you the best experience on our website. He urged Christians living in the city limits of Springfield to vote to repeal the law and to leave church with a Yes-On-Repeal yard sign. Yes, Lord, he answered. believe these churches are using Driscoll as fallen pastor insurance. He saw it as bad government.". (Note I did not diagnose) I do believe seen in that light, it makes it simpler to see how he gets by with it and why some who also make their living in similar ways are promoting him. So, where are the reasonable people? Mark also provided the all important yet elusive authentic community So Mars Hillweve done this in the pastyou probably dont know thissome years ago you all purchased a large piece of land in India that now has on orphanage with 100 kids on it and you purchased the land. They want their congregations and the world at large to believe that there are no amount of misdeeds that a pastor can perform, no matter how egregious, that means they shouldnt be instantly forgiven and returned to the pulpit ASAP. well this world is full of executives that get caught in sin and crime and immorality that give wonderful speeches of how sorry they are and then they turn around and get a promotion and never give a single thought to the people they destroyed on their way to the top. Missouri church service Saturday evening. And probably they wont. Unfortunately I dont see loose associations of Christ followers functioning in my locale but I continually find more dones, those done with institutional church. thanks for sharing that peter, i agree with the article but havent read any of his other posts. He sought out those that God sent Him to minister to in remote places away from crowds. It shouldnt be about raw numbers of attenders and financial statements if it is a true church. (See screen shot from the church website. The US pastor, who has courtedcontroversy for what has been dubbed his "more-macho-than-thou" brand of Christianity, resigned from his Seattle megachurch in October after being found "guilty of pride" as well as abusive, controlling and manipulative behaviour. Here is Stephen facing public opposition. standing. He is young and using Jesus is all he knows. also, I know people are tired of hearing these messages and having to be acting upon them, but the virus does not care that we are tired. I have also heard the thoroughly abusive interpretation of Psalm 105:15 touch not my anointed ones, do my prophets no harm. Their statements to Karen Hinkley and everyone else may be complete cynical BS to pull the wool over everyones eyes, or at least those of their pewsitters. 2023 www.news-leader.com. I also have recently spoken to another ministry leader involved in orphan care in Africa. i have met people that have told me that they went to gateway (and other churches that are similar) but no longer do without ever saying why. So, basically he functioned as Howard Stern for Christians. It probably did. Would you hire back the embezzler to count your cash drawer after he served a short sentence because you forgave him? The James River Church Joplin Campus, located at 1850 S Maiden Ln, Joplin, MO 64801 now has a permanent location! i think they ended up closing them or not being involved in them anymore, there is an american branch of them now though. there is a minor child involved that both of them love deeply. Based on my experience, this public story should be seen as somewhat inevitable in how they operate. Is that leader with a criminal record hitting on your young teen? http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm Pastor Lindell invited disgraced misogynistic megachurch pastor Mark Driscoll to speak at James River Assembly while Driscoll was in the midst of a sexual harassment and bullying scandal in his home church. With BHouston, JLindell and MD there is no hope. Just typing this has made me a bit queasy. Acts 6:15, they were enraged. This is off topic but your question has been the basis of discussion with many associates for the last 6 months, many recently leaving an authoritarian church. We dont hear about them so much, unfortunately, because they are not so concerned with informing the world about their humility. I dont think theres been any repentance at all. A lot of people will say, 'I got that. News flash: Jesus is the hero of scripture. There seems to be a lot of the just finding out new information that everyone already knows about but which now changes everything affliction going around. (Note I did not diagnose) I do believe seen in that light, it makes it simpler to see how he gets by with it and why some who also make their living in similar ways are promoting him. I just do not understand this focus on hoping Christians leaders will actually and finally act like Christians when everything they have been involved with and built looks nothing like Jesus Christ. In attempting to keep us from leaving they recruited the largest donor to Agathos (who was also a large donor to Mars Hill Church) to encourage us to stay. rather than come in glory he came in humility. pure grace are you or have been in similar situation to stephen? Some people believe that God put them there. In February 2008, less than two months after his promise not to abandon our orphans, we received a letter from Scott Thomas. @ LT: He faces re-election April 7. and it even works better when there is cheap grace and forgiveness all around. Steven Reed, Stephens' opponent, had an easier time answering. they had a scandal about their homes for helping young women also, financial corruption-ish and not letting the women get outside counseling. that is not walking in love that is running a business, and i am not a judge. http://www.smh.com.au/national/hillsong-conference-shows-interview-with-controversial-us-pastor-mark-driscoll-20150630-gi1y6d.html, As a follow-up (Sydney Morning Herald 1 July 2015), Hillsong conference shows interview with controversial US Pastor, Mark Driscoll. Did Paul hire a company to buy his books and get them on the bestseller list? But they dont work unless everybody actually sticks to them faithfully without exception, Collinssaid. This pastor was humble! Our heart at James River Church has always been to minister to people in our community. It was like my eyes were open. Of course BHouston can know about MDs statements in the past 5 minutes of Googling will turn up Wenatchee The Hatchets meticulous documentation, screenshots and all, and Warren Throckmortons extensive documentation, the mp3 of the infamous sermon in Scotland, etc pp. Youll notice the Pentecostals elevating him are in their 50s and 60s. GW is also currently preaching John Hagees End Times Armageddon sermons to pump up the numbers, claiming the Rapture WILL take place prior to 12-31-18, in order to scare folks into those spontaneous tubs. Certainly, or we are no better than he is. Right now i am in the second week of trying to help sort out a custody battle between two very wonderful young people. jesus gets out of his seat yelling forgive him forgive him forgive him, jesus cheers for forgivers who forgive their enemies. (I always pictured Jesus in that moment comforting stephen with great love and compassion, not screaming at him to make sure and do this thing right) Great insight. I dont think Christians have to throw out common sense/reason/logic. Your comment about magic words reminded me of Simon the Magician in Acts who was so popular and had all kinds of attention because of his magic performances. But here is the underlying issue: we in evangelical Christianity have become so good at eisogeting the scriptures (reading ourselves into the story) it has gotten to the point of narcissism, or as one preacher puts it, narcigesis., Dont believe me? He was an abusing thug. And we in the real world of Jobs & Lives have to deal with the resulting Speshul Little Snowflakes. This guy has lists on his page in bulleted form: And so on. That is largely what TWW does, ISTM. Have you noticed the more scandals from some thugs they actually become more popular? plausible they shoved that in jesus mouth, with that taste on his lips. (the death of Jesus on the cross as written in the bible is not enough, mark adds something more exciting and sickening like they shoved an a##-wipe sponge in Jesus mouth.) How can a reasonable person look past that? i think you are addressing the biggest point actually. Thanks for sharing your answer Lydia. I will post about this. GW used to require people to take a class and understand the commitment but they couldnt keep their salvation numbers up without the spontaneous element that include giving away free clothes and smart little swag bags for those willing to dunk for the cameras. She came to me in sorrow that she walked away from a relationship with Agathos after that Mars Hill warning.. Others appear to draw some type of inspiration from Driscoll. http://godsbreath.net/2007/11/07/qualifications-for-pastors/, A few items: A preacher is not to be- 15 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts concerning the prophets; Behold, I will feed them with wormwood, and make them drink the water of gall: for from the prophets of Jerusalem is profaneness gone forth into all the land. Finding out who and what Robert Morris really is inherently taints many others on the religious and political right, thereby making me question all my prior values and decisions. Even if youre looking at Christianity from a strictly business like mindset, I dont see how its good marketing or profitable to do the sexist shtick. no., to forgive them prepares you to see jesus. I'm in on that. The reason for this is that he wept, his remorse was written on his face for months and he still is remorseful, he didnt once make any excuse for his behavior, he accepted responsiblility and reached out to the family of the victim. I fully understand the depression and near paralysis that comes after leaving a cult. Im so used to the megas Velcro bars where they only care about you if they can slap some Velcro on you to make you come back so you can become a tithe payer. . And later did sort of brag about how beneficial it was to him in his spiritual life. Also it is not where you sit in rows and hear a weekly lecture. That idea was right before the idea that they were always having to give a lot of money to the church while we have voluntary giving. He needs a revenue stream and using Jesus is all he knows. The issue, however, is character, evidenced by a pattern of behavior reported with regard to bullying behavior, narcissitic traits, etc. Its kind of like that movie Winters Bone where the communities are closed to a fault. If it is all about numbers and money it would be a wild ride for about five or ten years till it crashes. Mind you I find Driscoll a tool in case I havent made that obvious. I know that tens of thousands left GW before I did and they walked away without the decency to help others. If the denominational system is rejected on doctrinal grounds, that only leaves the congregation. ATB Clear All United States - All Cities Before people know it, feeling loved and valued (and not realizing it was due to preplanned manipulation). I arrived a little late here, and this has likely already been mentioned (I havent read all comments). jamesriver.org [email protected] (417) 581-5433; At James River Assembly we're focused.Upward in Worship, Inward in Commitment and Outward in Evangelism. If there is one thing I know it is that those around Acts 29 circles are now in Mark who? Their statements to Karen Hinkley and everyone else may be complete cynical BS to pull the wool over everyone's eyes, or at least those of their pewsitters. It shouldnt be about raw numbers of attenders and financial statements if it is a true church. Youre not trying hard enough! The teachings of Christ are based on love and forgiveness, and I will not write off Mark as a person simply because of the things that people have said about him, a small minority of people signing a petition or statements he has made many years ago for which he has since repeatedly apologised, Houston said. I do feel bad for the guy in many ways. I think older people ignored the bad boy Driscoll because he seemed to be reaching the young people. I have to disagree Gus considering you mentioned brain cells. At least at one point, women made up about 50% to 50% of most churches. Thats why every post they make against corrupt churches matters. shuning is not always done professionally as in TVC but so often done whisperingly in churches but the effect is the same to the person shunned. These Pentecostals keep insisting that almost everything written on the internet about Mark Driscoll isnt even close to the truth. (?) Its just another singing and acting gig for many of them. Im all for forgiveness but this complete whitewash of history when someone offers up an opportunistic Im sorry is not something I see in day to day life. But we dont know yet for sure. For the Christmas services, additional services were added to further provide for social distancing. It seems foolish from a marketing and business view to alienate over half your customers.. An IRS spokesman in St. Louis would not comment when asked if a pastor could speak from the pulpit to encourage congregants to vote a particular way on an issue. Pastors that dont understand the devestation they cause by playing God in peoples lives, especially women and childrens lives, have no business calling themselves christians and certainly shouldnt be in positions where people might think they are speaking for God Himself when they tell them how to live. one passenger died. (WARNING: Includes graphic language), American news sources didn't waste much time alerting their readers of this development. They are used to being believed no matter what they say. these were murders not trials. The he takes him back to Antioch where they work together for a year with converted Gentiles. We dont hear about them so much, unfortunately, because they are not so concerned with informing the world about their humility. It could be that they are as ignorant as I once was, but it makes me distrust their judgment and discernment and dislike them all the same. hes a wonderful pastor to the very end. Certainly, Fulgencio Batista (dictator of Cuba at the time of the communist takeover) was a very corrupt man, whose government did terrible things, as with Trujillo in the Dominican Republic, Papa Doc Duvalier in Haiti, and many others. The last time Robert Morris met and greeted anyone as part of his service he still had his braces/retainer on. "Our desire for things God has forbidden is a reflection of how sin has distorted us, rather than a reflection of how Christ has made us.". In December 2007, Merle and I quietly left Mars Hill Church. He told me Tuesday that he has every right to campaign for repeal in a sermon. Obviously, I disagree with Lindell on the upcoming vote. All he has to do is say "I repent" and it has to be forgiven and forgotten or we are the meanies. You might be interested in this post from this recent post at Stand Firm, an Anglican blog, regarding Hillsong. I think it underestimates those believers in the pews who are, themselves, filled with the Spirit and do exhibit the fruit of Galations 5. "Addressing this topic or the subject of the upcoming vote from the pulpit is not against the law in this country, although it may be in the future," Lindell said in the sermon. i found it impossible to take advantage of people, i found that if i hurt someone even unententionally i couldnt sleep until i made it right. I find it hard to believe he truly didnt know anything before last weekend! He is young and using Jesus is all he knows. So far I define church as more what it isnt rather than what it is. Did Driscoll forget about the part where Saul went away for years after his conversion. COuld someone explain how its supposed to work without a leader . Are you not reporting instant healing to keep the confirmed miracle count up? Sam, I sincerely hope that nothing Ive written ever makes you rethink your relationship with God. How about the demon trials? he (stephen) probably had a ministry, forgiving means you transfer judgment to Jesus, thats what he does, (stephen transfers it to jesus to judge paul), words fail me, but a wrote a bunch which should be up soon lol, i tweeted: Rumors that circulated after the trial of Paul Petry. I also find him vulgar and misogynistic, so I dont see him as ever having been qualified to start with. FTR Hillsong is also Assemblies of God. Hasnt it been around long enough that either people (especially younger guys) are sick of it, or they have finally realized its harmful or obnoxious? The way I see things may be different in that I see the individuals in the Kingdom being more important than mediating organizations in the church universal. This is why I said above I dont think Driscoll should even be allowed to go on speaking engagements, sell Christian books, or anything involving Christianity. Ill be honest I dont see Christ in it. While I appreciate that we were exposed to different theologians, it seemed the bent was toward Calvinism. They want him to go away and they want to pretend he never existed for the sake of saving those church plants. He set himself up as King of Acts 29 and operated with no accountability at Mars Hill. Or there are people who were sexually abused by Uncle so and so who have forgiven him, and perhaps the man has done his time, but their forgiveness does not mean that they would ever allow their children in the same room with him. In your mega travels Lydia, is this homogenization of bad practices the norm? There has not been a frank identification of the flaw in the system that produced the horrific results. I think it is perfectly ok to say some people are toxic and avoid them for safety and mental health reasons. I dont beleive that for a moment. Newer ones have theater seating or individual chairs. I can forgive someone even without an apology. Its the same game he has played. In 2002, Agathos began as a ministry to rescue orphans in Africa during the peak of the out-of-control HIV/AIDS crisis. have caused me to go into a major identity crisis, what i thought were well meaning however slightly misguided churches and some of the right wing christian patriots are not who or what i thought they were. By and large, our local churches have been great examples of staying emotionally connected while protecting one another in this pandemicthis example does not do those congregations justice., I stg we're the dumbest country in world.
Living Life Deliberately In Pop Culture,
Nashville, Tn Obituaries 2021,
Human Geography Can Best Be Defined As,
Positive And Negative Effects Of Imperialism In China,
Are Phil And Dave Mattingly Related,
Articles J
james river assembly scandal